Judging rides and parks, it’s all relative.

[WrongWay]

In 1955 there were no theme parks. When Walt built DL, it was compared to carnivals, amusement parks and amusement piers. He could get away with great scenery, a few unique rides, and lots of placeholders (Indian Village, Hall of Aluminum Fame, etc). He could build a park with great bones and add great rides later.

Epcot, EuroDisney and IOA showed you can't construct a full park. MGM and DAK showed you can't build a park with no rides.

So, with DCA we got lots of rides, but no great themes.
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Pre-ToT, Soarin’ was a great ride by DCA standards. Easily the most unique and immersive ride in the park. Post ToT, Soarin’ is just a nice D ticket. Even Scremin’ is highlighted as just a coaster-themed-coaster.

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From the time you enter the lobby until you leave the gift shop, ToT really shows what the rest of DCA is missing. Rich, 3D, immersive, imaginative sets. Story. Build up. Pre-show. Eye candy everywhere. The details in the foundation of the boiler room really shows the lack of effort in themeing the Screamin and Soarin queues.

Compared ToT, EVERY ride in DCA is Six Flags quality. Soarin’ has lost most of its repeatability already. We didn’t ride it a single time this trip. Scremin’ is right there on the lack of repeatability scale. I rode it 3 times, only because the other in the group haven’t ridden it (or other unthemed coasters) nearly as much as I have.
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So, what is the future of DCA? If they were to add a RnRC and/or Expedition Everest type coaster, how long would Screamin’ remain popular? How could they rework such a large coaster to add theming and story and show scenes? If they add a Pirates quality dark ride, how long will people think of Soarin as unique and immersive?

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I think, unfortunately, the answer is that the park will forever be a hodge-podge of high budget “E-Ticket” add-ons slapped onto an otherwise uninspiring and poorly themed park. Sad really. They’ll never spend money to replace or theme Scremin’, GRR, Soarin’, Hyperion, etc, nor will they take out these big rides, so there is no way around it. We’re stuck with great rides slapped onto a park with poor bones, no heart, and a cheap soul.

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Relative to Six Flags, that is great. It could be unthemed coasters slapped onto a heartless park with a cheap soul. Relative to Disneyland, DCA sucks. Forever a monument to "build it and they will come" MBA type, uncreative, mass production mentality of the retail store management.

[disneyman]

I think the 3 original DCA E-tickets served their purpose, and DCA is not supposed to be Disneyland. It's just there to get guests staying at the property longer, and to be a sort of expansion of Disneyland. I don't think it's bad at all. Also, beside the Route 66 area, the park does not really lack the themeing that some make it out to lack.

[Nemo88]

So, what is the future of DCA? If they were to add a RnRC and/or Expedition Everest type coaster, how long would Screamin’ remain popular? How could they rework such a large coaster to add theming and story and show scenes? If they add a Pirates quality dark ride, how long will people think of Soarin as unique and immersive?

I dont think just because something "better" comes along that it will take away from what is already there.

for example,Indy is much more detailed and immersive in story then say the Space Mnt,but they can both co-exsist together...Space remains popular despite the fact that Indy came about and had "more" to offer.

I think the same will happen to DCA,new E tickets will open,new favorites will be made,but the oldies (Screamin,GRR,Soarin etc) will still be popular too,and why not? just because the newest ride opens doesnt take away from the old ones.

I think Soarin is an amazing attraction,even up against some of Disneyland's best,GRR is no worse then say Big Thunder in terms of immersiveness and "story".They are both basically themed to the scenery around them.I dont think DCAs original attractions are that bad,in fact some of them are very well done...but Im sure youll disagree.

at any rate,I think most of these attractions will stand the test of time,I think Screamin' will always be there because it has quickly become a icon and its beautiful at night...bigger better rides will come to DCA no doubt,just like how bigger and better came to DL,but they will co-exsist in DCA just how they do in DL.

however,I think the areas that will meet a bulldozer sooner rather then later will be Route 66 and the aqeduct water play area near Bugs Land...

[WrongWay]

I dont think just because something "better" comes along that it will take away from what is already there.

Well, I do. The prettiest girl in the room gets a tiny bit less pretty when someone evne prettier walk in. When someone WAY prettier walks in, the former prettiest becomes just so-so.

for example,Indy is much more detailed and immersive in story then say the Space Mnt,but they can both co-exsist together...Space remains popular despite the fact that Indy came about and had "more" to offer.

Again, I disagree. Space Mt. did lose some appeal when better came along. Fortunatly, Space Mt. was SO far ahead of Six Flags unthemed coasters that even when better came along, Space Mt. was still in the top 10 best themed thrill rides.

I think the same will happen to DCA,new E tickets will open,new favorites will be made,but the oldies (Screamin,GRR,Soarin etc) will still be popular too,and why not? just because the newest ride opens doesnt take away from the old ones.

Again, I disagree. As more highly themed and immersive rides are added, the lack of theming and story at these original DCA rides will show all the more.

I think Soarin is an amazing attraction,even up against some of Disneyland's best,

I think they need a far less ugly building, theming for the queue, better maintenance on the screens and film, and a host of other changes before it comes close to going up against something like Jungle Cruise or even Peter Pan.

GRR is no worse then say Big Thunder in terms of immersiveness and "story".They are both basically themed to the scenery around them.

No way!!!!! BTMRR gives you stuff to look at besids the tracks. GRR, you're looking at the water seeing who gets splashed next.

at any rate,I think most of these attractions will stand the test of time,

Yes, and when the park opens in Feb of 2001, it will be packed. Just wait and see. Oh wait... Well, it is the wether. As soon as the rain quits... As soon as they get new marketing... the only problem is an online conspiracy against Pressler.....

Whatever.

I think Screamin' will always be there

I agree, and it makes me want to cry. We'll always have a Six Flags coaster in this Disney park.

bigger better rides will come to DCA no doubt,just like how bigger and better came to DL,but they will co-exsist in DCA just how they do in DL.

But DL had AWESOME bones. Awesome settings that were out of imagination, the settings of great adventures.... DCA has bad bones. Cheap, unimaginative, mundane theming and off-the-shelf attractons.

They'll add better rides, but it will just show the contrast between good and bad all the more. Sad really. They had one chance to get it right, and they failed miserably. We're doomed to live with the flaws forever.

[Nemo88]

But DL had AWESOME bones

it did? I remember reading about how they had to connect all the lands because it used to force you to go to the hub to entire another land,it caused major traffic flow issues.DL works well right now because it has been fine-tuned through the years,its layout and design has been modified and perfected,but it was hardly perfect at opening.

No way!!!!! BTMRR gives you stuff to look at besids the tracks. GRR, you're looking at the water seeing who gets splashed next.

in GRR you look at rocks and a mountain,in BTMRR you are looking at rocks and a mountain....granted BTMRR has a few additives like the goat,and the rainbow cave,but there isnt much more in terms of story or themeing then GRR.Its a train ride through a mountain,GRR is a raft ride through a mnt.

Again, I disagree. As more highly themed and immersive rides are added, the lack of theming and story at these original DCA rides will show all the more.

so do u think Indy makes Dumbo look like crap?

[Instidude]

I think the point of what Paradise Pier is, and why it as built might be missed here in this discussion.

My opinion, for what it's worth... Disney wanted to give more rides to DCA on opening. Why? because they knew that there was not a big resort like WDW, where you can get away with a half day park and still have other parks to see, Pleasure island, resorts, water parks , etc. The more I look at DCA, the more I see that these inexpensive rides, with a slight Disney twist (think the swinging cars on the wheel, the orage around the stinger, the Mickey head Loop of CS, etc), were put in to give a higher ride count, relatively inexpensively (more rides, less investment). As the park is built out, I see them taking down some of the less immersive rides, once the room for them is needed. They were not a huge capital outlay, and in 10 years, they can be demo'd.

So why do we have PP? to give rides in a nicely themed area. Are these rides here for the duration? probably not. a $15 million coaster is better than waiting for a $25 million dark ride, but my guess is that the dark ride is coming. They just wanted to build the park with as many rides as they could fit in the budget. You put in a few e-tickets, some of the favorite "movies" from WDW, and cheaper rides to fill in the holes. Over time you fill in the holes with better fill material. They probably were able to put in PP for the price of one immesive dark ride.

Hope I made sense, since I think I said the exact same thing in both paragraphs.

[disneygal]

DL works well right now because it has been fine-tuned through the years,its layout and design has been modified and perfected,but it was hardly perfect at opening.

Give DCA that same time and it will get fine tuned as well. Disneyland has been around for 50 years now DCA so much less than that. It took DL a long time. I know that DCA isn't a very wonderful park and can be made so much better. I think that they need to use some more ideas like ToT and things from MGM. I wrote in a post earlier (I was half joking in it) that DCA should be an MGM SoCal or just keep the California theme. Put in a Rockin Roller Coaster with No Doubt or something instead to keep the California theme going.

[WrongWay]

Me: But DL had AWESOME bones
Nemo: it did? I remember reading about how they had to connect all the lands because it used to force you to go to the hub to entire another land,it caused major traffic flow issues.DL works well right now because it has been fine-tuned through the years,its layout and design has been modified and perfected,but it was hardly perfect at opening.

I never said DL was perfect at opening. It had good bones. Main Street, the hub, the exotic and imaginative themes, the castle.... The foundation of the park's basic design was good. Small problem such as lack of traffic flow from TL to FL could be fixed.

DCA does not have good bones. The icon is in the wrong place(placed to look good from the hotel instead of the park entrance), and that can't be fixed. The unthemed raft ride can't easily be fixed. The big unthemed coaster can't easily be fixed. It would be very expensive to retheme cement slab with ugly buildings lands. The whole CA theme is unimaginative. DCA has bad bones.

[WrongWay]

The more I look at DCA, the more I see that these inexpensive rides, with a slight Disney twist (think the swinging cars on the wheel, the orage around the stinger, the Mickey head Loop of CS, etc), were put in to give a higher ride count, relatively inexpensively (more rides, less investment). As the park is built out, I see them taking down some of the less immersive rides, once the room for them is needed. They were not a huge capital outlay, and in 10 years, they can be demo'd.

I think it is clear the farm, bay and Route 66 areas were little more than placeholders. So was the 1955 Tomorrowland and Indian Village.

However, I don't see Screamin' as a placeholder. I hear they spent $50 million plus on it. Certainly GRR is not a placeholder. Soarin' may have been seen as a placeholder, but almost certainly isn't anymore.

I would have thought the Orange Stinger was just a place holder had they not used the "look" of it for DLR signage and such.

They had $600 million to build a park. Asssuming half that for restaurants, shops and infrastructure, you get $300 million for rides. Well, that is 3 ToTs. You can't have a park with 3 rides. Okay, $150 for 3 pretty good, if unthemed, rides(screamin, Soaring, GRR), and the other $150 million for a couple 3D movies and 10 off-the-shelf rides.

It makes a lot of sense from a design point-of-view.

What doesn't make a lot of sense if for people to try to convince hard core Disney fans that a park with mundane themes, 3 good rides, and a bunch of off-the-shelf crud is a great Disney theme park, with great bones, that just needs a few years of growth.

The park needs a systimatic, land-by-land, total makeover.

Is that going to happen? Well, DisCo is trying to keep the capital budget to $600 million a year for WDW, DLP and DLR. Assuming half that for WDW. Split the remaining $300 million between DLP and DLR and we're down to $150 million for DLR. Allocate half that to DL. That leaves $75 million per year for DCA. That gives one land make over, every 3-5 years, or so. On that schedule, SFPP will not be seeing any work for 15-20 years at least.

[Nemo88]

DCA does not have good bones. The icon is in the wrong place(placed to look good from the hotel instead of the park entrance), and that can't be fixed. The unthemed raft ride can't easily be fixed. The big unthemed coaster can't easily be fixed. It would be very expensive to retheme cement slab with ugly buildings lands. The whole CA theme is unimaginative. DCA has bad bones.

Grizzly Peak is a mountain in the shape of a Grizzly,I think thats very imaginitive,Ive certainly never seen it done in this way before,its hardly un-themed,you may not like the theme,but the theme exsists nontheless.

the area that houses Soarin' is meant to look like a air-strip,when your in that area that is all you are immersed with,I think Condor Flats is one of the few areas of DCA that has almost total immersion.I dont see why that area is so ugly and unthemed to you.I think it looks great,different strokes I guess.

CA Screamin' is part of the enviroment,in and of itself there isnt much themeing,but its "woody" style build,the lights,the water etc make it look like something out of a old seaside pier,Santa Cruz or Santa Monica Pier come to mind.Its part of the theme much how the caslte at DL is part of the theme for FL.Its part of the bigger picture.

honestly WrongWay,I just dont see how you dislike DCA so much,I put my money where my mouth is,when I am at the resort I spend most of my time at DCA.I love the place,its not just some Disney-spin machine here online,I really do enjoy the place.I think its well-themed,pretty immersive,has great attractions,atmopshere etc.I just cant see how you can go there and not get sucked into the vibe....its a great little place.

I never said DL was perfect at opening. It had good bones. Main Street, the hub, the exotic and imaginative themes, the castle.... The foundation of the park's basic design was good. Small problem such as lack of traffic flow from TL to FL could be fixed.

it has good bones,as does DCA,every park will have good and bad areas.DL was poorly designed in the fact that it bottle necks in many areas,still does to this very day.DCA does a much better job at utilizing bigger walkways and not giving you a cramped feeling,DL on the other hand is better laid out for sightline issues etc...so see? each park has its pros and cons when it comes to "bones".I dont think its cut and dry as you make it,"DCA sucks,DL rocks".

I would have thought the Orange Stinger was just a place holder had they not used the "look" of it for DLR signage and such.

the old TL rocket jets used to be part of alot of the DL signage,so was the skyway,and we all know what happened to those rides.Ouimet and company changed the Disneyland Resort almost immediatly when they took control,they could just as easily wipe out any reference to the Orange Stinger if they wanted to...not a big deal